NO Consensus on vaccine safety

From the thread--

Baiter--YOU are NOT more of an Authority than these doctors
new
Submitted by nora on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 11:55pm.
It's Them Pesky Facts Again
Submitted by Crank Bait on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 9:42pm.

Submitted by nora on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 8:27pm.
...My friend used to get the seasonal flu shot every year, about three or four years in a row and then got the flu each of those years usually within a week of getting a flu shot...
---------------
1.) The human immune system does not develope immunity within one week of receiving a flu vaccine. This is published fact and has been for many years. It is precisely why the recommendation to be vaccinated early, prior to the seasonal outbreak, is repeated every year.

2.) Unless a culture is done to identify the strain, the "flu" contracted after a flu vaccine has been administered could be any of a number of infections, including other influenzas. Anecdotal and clinical diagnoses are guesses at best.
============================

I just posted an Open Mic in response to you. It's titled "NO Consensus on Vaccine Safety".

And I trust the doctors cited in the article in my Open Mic alot more than I trust the scientists who work for the profiteering Pharmaceutical Corporations.

Actually, I think on this one, you are the one short on the FACTS. It's quite possible you are hanging out over there with the profiteers on this one, using their one-sided facts, while relying primarily on blind trust. See you over there, if you care to have a discussion instead of an explosion.

Oh, yes, regarding your first point: Are you really saying that truly EVERYONE -- old, young, weak, strong, ill, etc. -- takes the SAME amount of time to respond and responds in the same way?

And your second point, from what you say, it sure provides excellent cover for the vaccine makers; what can they be responsible for in those boundless non-parameters? Your description also sort of describes the method which the Vaccine Industry uses when choosing the viral strain to make their seasonal flu vaccine: Worse than a coin toss. Like picking a virus out of a hat in a way.

(And, Crank, you spelled 'develop' wrong, I think.)

Screw safe, how about proving they are effective?
Submitted by maggiesboy on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 9:47pm.
The whole thing stinks imho.

There's yet to be an epidemic but I doubt that's due to the vaccine which couldn't be produced in quantities sufficient to meet the deadline

I don't doubt they are safe. That's not to say that a single batch could be bad due to some kind of error but that can happen with any medicine.

If I were so afraid I would have tried this one but it probably wouldn't have prevented the craptastic 2 weeks I've just lived through.

======================================

But there are enough vaccines now, Maggiesboy.

I just saw something funny the other day!

You know how sometimes (in good weather) you'll see somebody GYRATING and WAVING to cars and they have a big placard/poster/sign with balloons maybe and even sometimes an arrow sign too -- so that people will pull into a real estate openhouse, or store's grand opening or sale event. You know, street level marketing for profit.

Well, I saw a guy with a sign and he was GYRATING, jumping up and down on the sidewalk near a big chain variety drugstore -- and his sign read "H1N1 VACCINES"!

It was funny to see and made me laugh. But, it certainly is a testament to the Big Business of Selling Vaccines.

me too no ill effects
Submitted by jbenet on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 10:19pm.
The once in a lifetime pnumonia shot left a little sorness at the shot site. I didn't get the shingles shot because shingles episodes are brought on by stress. My work puts me through a lot of stress at times. Maybe it's preventative, don't know on that one.
Interesting how far the anti science meme has penetrated.

=====================================

Do you think this challenge to vaccines is "anti-science"?

Not at all.

It is about balanced science.

It is about not letting the For-Profit Corporate Stronghold on Science call the shots.

Half As Bad Beats All Bad Any Day
Submitted by Crank Bait on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 11:11pm.
Submitted by maggiesboy on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 9:47pm.
...it probably wouldn't have prevented the craptastic 2 weeks I've just lived through.
--------
Aha! That is the opposite of what many of the statistical studies indicate. The goal is not to prevent any inkling of flu-like symptoms.

The goal is to reduce deaths and misery and complications and durations.

The goal is to prevent your illness from infecting or killing someone else. Vaccinations are altruistic at their core. If we could numerically quantify a contagion in a population by its total hours of sickness and its severity of sickness, a smaller number would result in fewer infections and deaths.

The sicker you are and the longer you are sick, the more people you will infect. The sicker you are and the longer you are sick, the more likely you will experience complications and possibly death.

If a two-week flu can be reduced to a one-week flu, that is a very good thing. It doesn't mean that you escaped the flu but it might mean that someone else did. (If it is me, I'll send you a cheese basket.)
--------------------------------------------
Submitted by toniD on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 9:59pm.
...I've had both flu shots with no ill effect. I have an auto immune disease so my doctor wanted me to get them both otherwise I'd get twice as sick as normal people...
--------
Amen Sister toniD! Testify to the brethren.

You could get sicker and be at risk of complications.

You could get sicker and be hospitalized where you would pose a greater risk to others.

This is probably not a good time to mention that people who are 65 and older do not get as good of an immune response out of a standard flu vaccine as younger people do. (If you lived under a mountain and had your own mad scientist on retainer, he could administer antigens and test for antibodies until you were fully immunized.)

===========================

Crank, you say:

"The goal is to prevent your illness from infecting or killing someone else. Vaccinations are altruistic at their core."

I've never understood this in day-to-day reality. Say, I'm sitting at my desk and I am WELL, not exposed to the flu and carrying no flu infection. Then my co-worker walks in who just got a nasal flu vaccine "shot". Who is the infectious party at that point? Is she infectious? I can't see how I am the infectious one. Although AFTER she sneezes on me (which I can't see as altruistic), I most likely will be.

I really want to understand, so, if there's an explanation I'd like to be exposed to it.

The more often one gets vaccines, the more rapid the onset of dementia.

An interesting article here points out that H1N1 vaccine can contain a million times more squalene than other vaccines--

http://www.rense.com/general87/mill.htm

And this is an interview that makes one think --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jck_1G01xHw

Wallow in this for a while:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2040

It has big words in it and actual science and actual citations, so it should keep you busy for weeks. It begins with a reference to Jefferson's criticisms by someone who knows as little as you.

The rest of it is an even-handed overview of flu vaccine efficacy studies and their limitations.

nora: "Oh, yes, regarding your first point: Are you really saying that truly EVERYONE -- old, young, weak, strong, ill, etc. -- takes the SAME amount of time to respond and responds in the same way?"

Bait: "No. I said that one week is less time than required to develop an immunity after receiving a flu vaccine. It is a process that requires two to three weeks. It is a matter of biology and time. There are biological limits within a species. You made a statement that relied on anecdotes from laymen and it was wrong. It's still wrong. There is an incubation period for influenza before symptoms appear. The flu innoculations of your friends had to occur in less than one week after the vaccine was administered for symptoms to appear within the week. Nobody gets immunity in one week and nobody gets immunity in less than one week and nobody is told that they will have immunity in one week or less. Everybody is told that it requires two to three weeks."

nora: "And your second point, from what you say, it sure provides excellent cover for the vaccine makers..."

Bait: "There is no fucking way on god's green earth that vaccine studies would satisfy you, even if they actually inoculated human beings with flu viruses in a laboratory to test the efficacy of vaccines.

"This is not about influenza and the fact that it has wiped out entire societies several times in history. It is about nora's obsession with conspiracy and paranoia which is the entirety of your consciousness. No one who is as consumed as you are can formulate an unbiased thought. Everything you say and do is designed to prove your thesis, not to test it. The entire world is a lie and, by gawd, nora is gonna prove it.

"In short, you are far less trustworthy than the untrustworthy world you spend your waking hours revealing to us, ignorant hedonists that we are.

"Go back to work on the fake moonwalk crusade, nora. It's your speed and a good place to keep you out of harm's way. You won't get people killed like you can by cherrypicking anti-vaccine rants off of the Internet."

As an aside, to clarify your attempt, Crank, to discredit me with yet another Moonwalk reference, I direct anyone interested to see my response blog to his past attack --

http://www.samsedershow.com/node/5052

So let's try to talk about this ONE topic, shall we?

----

Oh, I see you may not expect me to participate since you already are putting words into my mouth with your very often used fictional dialogue device.

Am I correct?

Do you consider actual words I may generate superfluous and inferior to your IMAGINED dialogue?

I was the one who introduced the use of the word 'anecdotal' and made clear there was a distinction BETWEEN 'SCIENTIFIC' AND 'ANECDOTAL'. Here, in this post:

********************
jbenet -- Has anyone on the blog received the H1N1 vaccine?
Submitted by nora on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 8:27pm.
how about ten grand
Submitted by jbenet on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 7:54pm.
If sombody can prove h1n1 vaccinations are Not safe.

========================

Or any other of the flu vaccines this year?

My friend used to get the seasonal flu shot every year, about three or four years in a row and then got the flu each of those years usually within a week of getting a flu shot, and they were not mild bouts, either. When he quit the shots, he stopped getting the flu!

I've never had a flu shot and got the flu only once in the past 5 years and it was mild.

Certainly not 'scientific', just 'anecdotal'.

But what is it with the vaccine issue when one hears such anecdotes? Why isn't there an effort to pursue this to a true scientific understanding? I say, in the absence of public statistics and studies, something -- possibly the profit motive -- is getting in the way of pursuing GOOD scienctific procedures.

***************

Everytime my friend got a flu shot, he came down with a fever and flu symptoms. I SAID it was anecdotal. But does it count for absolutely NOTHING in this world? And when he stopped getting the seasonal flu shots, he did NOT get flu symptoms. Does that count for nothing as well?

But to get back on track here, I never said vaccines don't work. My concern is product safety.

That link at the top of your post (sciencebasedmedicine.org) is a peculiar one. I haven't gone through all it contributors/editors yet, but these two jump out at me:

THE SKEPTIC FOUNDER (Now, am I wrong to say this guy would put himself out of a job if he found any challenge to CONVENTIONAL WESTERN CORPORATE SCIENCE legitimate?)--

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=223

[excerpt]

Founder and currently Executive Editor of Science-Based Medicine Steven Novella, MD is an academic clinical neurologist at the Yale University School of Medicine. He is also the president and co-founder of the New England Skeptical Society, the host and producer of the popular weekly science podcast, The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe, and the author of the NeuroLogicaBlog, a daily blog that covers news and issues in neuroscience, but also general science, scientific skepticism, philosophy of science, critical thinking, and the intersection of science with the media and society. Dr. Novella also contributes every Sunday to The Rogues Gallery, the official blog of the SGU.
[end excerpt]

And this young Whippersnapper who seems like he could be Dr. Novella's understudy--

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=389

[excerpt]

Timothy Kreider is an MD/PhD student at a public university in the northeast US. He never paid much mind to pseudoscience until discovering The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe and other podcasts that now keep him company during long nights in lab. He practices his skeptical analysis on extracurricular lectures organized by a student interest group for integrative medicine on campus.

As a graduate student, Tim is investigating immune mechanisms in a mouse model of gastrointestinal helminth infection. As a medical student, he has no idea what specialty to pursue and would love advice. He loves to teach math and science and hopes to pursue a career in medical academia.
[end excerpt]

Master Krieder is already busying himself organizing skeptic/debunking lectures even though he hasn't completed the studies that one would think would provide him with the knowledge that would give some scientific credance to his position.

This young man takes the high ground against "pseudoscience" while he MAY very well be practicing one: He experiments on mice. There is not enough information here, but IF, I say IF, he extrapolates that his work on mice pertains to humans, he himself would be practicing "pseudoscience" in the estimations of a number of scientists who have turned away from animal experimentation altogether, and now use cell research. Compared to a microbiologist's work, might his mouse experiments be considered quite primitive, perhaps?

And then your preferred website relies on this term "pseudoscience" with such assurance, the way it was used with assurance against innovators in the past (like the discoverer of microbes, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, or others such as Louis Pasteur and E.-L. Doyen). The doctors at your preferred website brand non-Corporate+University methods "pseudoscience". However, should those non-conventional methods trigger a response akin to the placebo effect, or any other response, scientifically those responses and their rates still should be considered as scientific data to be incorporated in the bigger picture, shouldn't they? (Shouldn't the data be valued? That is, in a world where scientific data is truly valued rather than used as a political tool to protect certain interests, shouldn't ALL data be valued?)

I will read through some of your preferred website of debunkers. I see they have topics that interest me, like acupuncture and supplements, but I suspect their views are as ostracizing as your own, Crank. I will apologize if my guess is wrong. But if they cling to FACTS, but only their facts, it will be a dead give-away.
--------------

Crank, THIS part of your above post--

>>"There is no fucking way on god's green earth that vaccine studies would satisfy you, even if they actually inoculated human beings with flu viruses in a laboratory to test the efficacy of vaccines.

"Go back to work on the fake moonwalk crusade, nora. It's your speed and a good place to keep you out of harm's way. You won't get people killed like you can by cherrypicking anti-vaccine rants off of the Internet."<<

--is bitter and violent denunciation. That is, a diatribe.

Wouldn't you rather have a conversation/discussion or debate/contest-of-ideas with as little of this muck seeping in as possible? I'm willing to try harder if you are.

Must get some sleep. So, I'm out of here for now.

G'nite.

This link talks about E.-L. Doyen, who was ostracized in his lifetime when he challenged the MEDICAL STATUS QUO, yet his innovations became invaluable.

http://www.bium.univ-paris5.fr/histmed/medica/doyen_eng.htm

Crank, you substituted that diatribe instead of a response to my criticism of your second point:

Crank's statement:

2.) Unless a culture is done to identify the strain, the "flu" contracted after a flu vaccine has been administered could be any of a number of infections, including other influenzas. Anecdotal and clinical diagnoses are guesses at best.

nora's response:

And your second point, from what you say, it sure provides excellent cover for the vaccine makers; what can they be responsible for in those boundless non-parameters? Your description also sort of describes the method which the Vaccine Industry uses when choosing the viral strain to make their seasonal flu vaccine: Worse than a coin toss. Like picking a virus out of a hat in a way.

-----------------

I'm suspecting I may have gotten the better of you here if you substituted that diatribe for a real response. Hmmmm?

Medline censors vitamin C findings.

(Maybe the Heart Disease Industry can't tolerate a challenge to their expensive drugs, procedures and operations?)

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v06n07.shtml

[excerpt]

Want to be a MEDLINE Information Censor?
The National Library of Medicine Needs You!

(OMNS, Jan 28, 2010) Would you like to dictate what nutritional research people may or may not access? Why not join the NLM's Literature Selection Technical Review Committee?

We think a good preparatory step is to take the Medline Censorship Aptitude Test (MED-CENT).

Not to worry; it's multiple choice.

First question: Which of the following research papers is NOT indexed by the National Library of Medicine's Medline?

A) Olfactory responses and field attraction of mosquitoes to volatiles from Limburger cheese and human foot odor. (J Vector Ecol, 1998)

B) Heated socks maintain toe temperature but not always skin blood flow as mean skin temperature falls. (Aviat Space Environ Med, 2003)

C) Jefferson JW, Thompson TD. Rhinotillexomania (nose-picking): psychiatric disorder or habit? (J Clin Psychiatry, 1995)

D) Pauling L, Rath M. An orthomolecular theory of human health and disease. (J Orthomolecular Medicine, 1991)

Answer: Only choice "D" is not available on Medline. The others most certainly are. Search each one and see for yourself at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Let's try another: Which of these studies is NOT indexed by Medline?

A) Psychophysiological responding during script-driven imagery in people reporting abduction by space aliens. (Psychol Sci, 2004)

B) The eyebrow frown: a salient social signal. (Emotion, 2002)

C) Staring at one side of the face increases blood flow on that side of the face. (Psychophysiology, 2004)

D) Rath M, Pauling L. Solution to the puzzle of human cardiovascular disease: Its primary cause is ascorbate deficiency leading to the deposition of lipoprotein(a) and fibrinogen/fibrin in the vascular wall. (J Orthomolecular Medicine, 1991)

Answer: "D" is not on Medline. All the rest are.

Ready? Select the study below that is NOT on Medline:

A) Espresso kiosks can be profitable addition to hospital foodservice. (Health Foodserv Mag, 2000)

B) Espresso maker's wrist. (West J Med, 1990)

C) Characterization of particles in cream cheese. (J Dairy Sci, 2004)

D) Rath M, Pauling L. Case Report: Lysine/ascorbate related amelioration of angina pectoris. (J Orthomolecular Medicine, 1991)

Yes, the study that Medline does not think is important enough for you to see is choice "D". The others are all indexed online by NLM at taxpayer expense.

Next:

A) The Easter bunny in October: is it disguised as a duck? (Percept Mot Skills, 1993)

B) Increasing the portion size of a packaged snack increases energy intake in men and women. (Appetite, 2004)

C) A piece of my mind. Reflections while listening to the Glazunov Saxophone Concerto. (JAMA, 2003)

D) Rath M, Pauling L. Apoprotein(a) is an adhesive protein. (J Orthomolecular Medicine, 1991)

You guessed it: "D" is not on Medline.

One last chance, now:

A) How dogs navigate to catch Frisbees. (Psychol. Sci, 2004)

B) Effect on tipping of barman drawing a sun on the bottom of customers' checks. (Psychol Rep, 2000)

C) An objective evaluation of the waterproofing qualities, ease of insertion and comfort of commonly available earplugs. (Clin Otolaryngol, 2004)

D) Hoffer A, Pauling L. Hardin Jones biostatistical analysis of mortality data for a second set of cohorts of cancer patients with a large fraction surviving at the termination of the study and a comparison of survival times of cancer patients receiving large regular oral doses of vitamin C and other nutrients with similar patients not receiving these doses. (J Orthomolecular Medicine, 1993)

Choice "D" is not indexed by Medline. The others are. Yes, they really are. Just type in the title at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

If you got all the above items right, you are well qualified to become a member of the NLM's Literature Selection Technical Review Committee, because you can discern what research should and should not be available to the public.

Censoring Linus Pauling

If you look carefully at the first four questions, you will see that four of Linus Pauling's papers appeared in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine in just one year. That year was 1991. Two years after this, JOM was reviewed by the National Library of Medicine's Literature Selection Technical Review Committee. NLM uses a point scale of zero to 5, with five being the highest recommendation for indexing, and zero being the lowest. On March 4, 1993, the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine received a "0.0" score.

One cannot escape the significance of such judgment. After all, "0.0" is not merely a low mark. "0.0" represents an absolute dearth of merit. And "zero point zero" states it so flatly as to leave no room for alternate interpretations.

To this day, after additional reviews, Medline still does not include the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.

To read the Linus Pauling papers that Medline decided rate a "0.0": http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1991/toc3.shtml and http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1993/toc3.shtml

[end excerpt]

I know how hard it is to have a dialogue with closed minded people.

NORAD was designed to be an early warning system (and it was taken over by cheney and did not serve the people as it was intended)

NORA is coming from a point of love and she is trying to be an early warning system.( like many professionals who question the M$M and it's obvious motives for fronting for big business)

I dont see the effort you put out to be matched by those who argue with you or with other professionals who challenge the obsfucation of the collective wisdom of independent thinkers or the integrity of the Drug companies.

Sam Seder could do a great show on the status of The Flu Business and the unethical marketing practices of the drug companies.

On a related note about trust, I do not trust our president . I do not trust any senator except Bernie. I do not trust the remaining democrats who out of blind loyalty stick with the broken paradigm.

I dont trust alcoholics or people who invest in companies that poison out earth.
I don't trust in unhealthy people to know how to handle health care issues.

I dont trust in people who use violence as a solution for sharing the world's resources.
I dont think Nuclear power is safe because the waste problem has not been dealt with properly.

I dont trust Monsanto,Dow Chemical or DuPont

I dont trust the DEA or our government's policy on Cannabis
I dont trust the federal reserve or the Big banks
I dont trust The catholic Church

I am out of place here in Sederville because I question the authority figures
who we have given up control to.

I believe in the healing powers of music and organic vegetable juices
I believe in non renumerated public service.
I believe in pets that try to heal humans with their love.
I believe in the artist/poet/selfless healers

I love women who give life and promote diversity
I am in love with Nora and MS-A and the others who continue to hold the light in the storm of confusion.
I AM AGAINST ALL WAR ALL THE TIME AND I DONT CARE WHAT LESS EVOLVED PEOPLE THINK ANYMORE.

and, Taozen, this other post of yours I've brought over because it is an example of how profit-motivated Corporate Science is not interested in data/science/evidence/facts/contraindications that get in the way of its all-consuming profit motive:

My cousin died from the addition of this medicine
Submitted by taozen on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 9:22am.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/health/23niss.html

He was a diabetic and had just gotten in control of his lifestyle issues. My father, a Doctor was sure it pushed him over the edge.

http://www.naturalnews.com/028239_aloe_vera_FDA.html

(NaturalNews) A terrorist attack exactly one month after 9/11 occurred in Tampa, Florida. But these terrorists were from the FDA, state health services bureaucrats and local sheriffs. The target of this attack was two highly successful, inexpensive experimental alternative cancer clinics using aloe vera extract. Some who were responding favorably to the treatments were now cut off and effectively sentenced to death by the federal and state governments.

The Event and Circumstances

The aloe vera extract the clinics used was developed by Ivan Danhoff, MD, PhD, considered the aloe vera authority out of Texas. He was going through the bureaucratic hoops to obtain an IND (investigational new drug) status, and he was going to use the data from the clinics, attended by Dr. Daniel Mayer and nutritionist Joseph Di Stefano. They had used his aloe extract on 100 cancer victims assigned to hospice. Ninety-four of them survived with no side effects from the treatments. Overall, the clinics' recovery rate was 80 percent.

Unfortunately, they were shut down before Dr. Danhoff could submit the clinics' results. The FDA had responded to complaints from local oncologists who were losing business! Not one patient had complained. Those cancer victims were thrilled at responding favorably to treatments that cost $1200 for the duration, 25 to 40 treatments or until there was remission. Just one chemotherapy treatment costs as much or more!

During the raid, one of the patients complained, "We're all adults here on our free will. Why don't you get out of here and leave us alone?" An FDA agent replied, "This will be your last treatment!" That patient and several others were denied effective treatments over business complaints from the cancer industry!

The Healing Properties of Aloe Vera Intensified

There are over 300 aloe vera species on earth. But the Aloe Barbadensis Miller species has been the favorite for study in scientific literature today. The main focus in ongoing research is a group of polysaccharides that contain the healing agents known as aloe polymannans. They all have different healing potentials.

The polymannan sizes range from small to medium to large and very large. Each one has a level of healing that corresponds in magnitude with its size. It's the very large molecular weight and long chain polymannans that Dr. Danhof extracted for use on cancer patients. Injecting the large molecule extract was necessary because it is very difficult to absorb through the digestive system.

Another aspect of these polymannans, especially the larger ones, is their capacity for organizing the immune system. These polymannans provide a detection capacity for cells to determine exactly what is needed for various pathogenic invaders. Without them, the cells are shooting wildly in the dark, and that can lead to damaging cytotoxic autoimmune responses.

From researcher Dr. Ivan Danhof: "The very large molecules are immune modulating, which have a powerful healing effect on AIDS, cancer and many different immune system disorders. It is also this large molecule that causes the body to produce a natural chemical, tumor necrosis factors, which functions to shut off the blood supply to tumors."

Therapy Post Mortem

In this Medical Mafia atrocity, the FDA was satisfied with closing the clinic down and disallowing the aloe extract's use. No one went to jail. But there was the "collateral damage" of patients unable to receive more treatments and at least eight dying within a year.

Even worse, the Medical Mafia had crushed yet another cancer cure that is effective, without side effects, and much less costly. The "War on Cancer" is a war on cancer cures.

Sources for more information:

Raid Background
http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/cance...

Raid Details by John Hammell
http://www.iahf.com/usa/20011106.html

Aloe Vera Healing with pdf access to "What is Aloe Vera?"
http://www.herbhealers.com/acemanna...

Stanford position.

That from the first part of this particular Bob Linden Go Vegan Radio show. He really gets some good ones in against Torture and Vivisection.

The satirical riff on vivisectors at a vivisection rally is really to the point!

This is GO VEGAN RADIO's "World Week for Animals in Laboratories" show:

http://www.goveganradio.com/flashplayer/player32.html?showDate=2009-04-2...

Cesar Chavez was a vegan. Hear him speak out for animals in this show.

Mainly, hear Richard McLelland, M.D., speaking about vivisection as an anti-Life activity that is an exercise in non-essential science which lacks transparency and is reliant on Public Relations for its continuance.

Nuclear cardiologist John Pippin, M.D. discusses lab animal experimentation and how it lacks research efficacy for reaching human medical goals--

[in the second segment of this audio program]

http://www.goveganradio.com/flashplayer/player32.html?showDate=2009-04-1...

I love Nora
Submitted by taozen on Mon, 02/22/2010 - 8:28pm.
I know how hard it is to have a dialogue with closed minded people.

NORAD was designed to be an early warning system (and it was taken over by cheney and did not serve the people as it was intended)

NORA is coming from a point of love and she is trying to be an early warning system.( like many professionals who question the M$M and it's obvious motives for fronting for big business)

==========
even temporarily.

(OK. Maybe temporarily, but not on purpose.) ;)

I am sorry about your cousin.

after he saw some avenues of research in gulf war syndrome.Alan said that he was accused of causing trouble when he brought up liver toxicity as a common thread with all those who were given manditory vaccines as soldiers during the Gulf War days. Some Army people asked him to lay back on speaking publicly. Then about a year later the same Officials asked him how he would handle mass poisonings from biologics and would glutithione replacement be good in his opinion? .It seems as more traditional scientists follow up on Pressman's work they come to appreciate his views.

Submitted by taozen on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 6:20pm.
Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 3:39pm.

I would add that Gary Null has written 70 books and made a few documentaries. he has a very long running radio show and his product line and health food store are not very profitable to him,nor was his show on WBAI pacifica. which is listener sponsored( I know him and I have more trust in him than many people). He does copious amounts or research before he publishes . His view on A.I.Ds is controversial ( and evolving) but his work on environmental issues is cutting edge. Bill Moyers Respects his work if that is a character reference you might think is validating.

In regards to DR. Alan pressman I would add that he has taught very many people who are now practicing lisenced Nutritionalists around the country. he is Diplomate on the Board of Geriatric Studies ( I will check the exact name.).
He Does not practice as a Chiropractor much anymore but he is better suited to be a researcher and college level professor. He has been hired by The Julliard School to help performers with nutritonal guidance. Crank I dont want to try and impress you but this guy is a quality thinker and teacher. The products he sells are often years ahead and are proprietory formulas that are unique. He was lennie Bernstein's advisor ,and a lot of famous people,many of them who are M.D.s come to him. He was hired by the Nicks and some other big sports teams as a consultant for his work on joint and cartilage maintenance.. I hope you search around and you might find him to meet your demanding standards. I know you have a stated prejudice against Chiropractic medicine. I prefer Acupunture. We all have our choices. I have the greatest respect for Pressman's integrity I find him to be analytical and scholarly.
I can see you already have dismissed Alan Pressman and Gary Null as unworthy of your respect. Pressman's book on Glutathione was very well recieved by many in the scientific community. His Institute is a genuine research facility . They write books and Alan pressman has sold a lot of books worldwide.
I wish I had the time to debate you about his spectacular standing at places like Sloan kettering and other big Institutions that ask for his imput on nutritional care of very complicated cancer cases. Gary Null is a student of Pressman's work and He is the more political kind of author. Thank you for not going killer whale on me even though I eat all that krill oil and I might be considered a competitor for some other whale 's food supply.

I just remembered he was helpful to Bob Dylan and His Band and has helped many musicians with their bad habits and helped them get clean. He has a lot of A.I.D s patients and has had some good results with the wasting syndrome that they suffer from.

»

Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 9:01pm.

by Dr pressman or by Gary Null. There has never been a court case because they sold or offered dangerous materials.
There are many cases brought up against Big Pharma the most recent is Avandia. I ask you to listen to some of Pressman's recordings and tell me if you dont recognize his intellectual approach as probably more science than you expected. Pressman has not changed his rates for office visits in many years. Alan sells products that are appropriate responses to the testing that he goes through with each patient. He uses a test called organic acid profiling which can tell what systems in the body are not functioning properly. Pressman tests for parasites, he has his patients tested for C-reactive protein. A test which is gaining acceptance among caridologists for imflamation. Pressman test his diabetic patients with the longer and more effective over night fasting for blood sugar readings. Pressman tests for thyroid status for hypo and hyper thyroid function. pressman tests for H pylori for stomach uclers, and he was the first Dr. of any sort to do this in NYC. Pressman Reads all the diagnostic tests that are done by other Dcoctors when he councils his patients He explains what the other Doctor's tests mean to the patient when the traditional Doctors don't even bother..Pressman tests for neurtransmitter status before offering Targeted Amino Acid Therapy.Pressman tests for vitamin and mineral status with blood tests which are more accurate than hair analysis.Pressman tested my girlfriend for triglycerides years before it became common wisdom to incude with lipid levels (most Doctor's just test for good and bad cholesterol.In fact his patients complain of his fastidious ,almost fanatical need to run tests rather than guess and make judgment calls based on anecdotal evidence.
. Pressman has been hired on as a consultant by many other types of 'vitamin companies" because his reputation is stellar. He cant be blamed if his wisdom is used to market multi level products. Alan does not do MLM marketing in his office. He has been a distinguished advisor for Purity products and for Da Vinci Labs. . If he sells products that aren't made by other companies which are specificly designed for patients who are tested first I think it sounds ethical. he has designed a Rhibose formula which no one else has gotten to yet.. Pressman always test patients for their PH level. I don't think he could be considered a charlatan or unethical or unscientific . .He works with the top prostate Doctors to monitor and control hormone levels. He would never give or sell DHEA and other hormone modulating substances without testing first. Lets do some homework before you make rash judgment calls as to his character or his effectiveness as a New kind of Doctor. he told my girlfriend that he would quickly refer her to a specialist if her symtoms indicated a return of her Lymphoma. So did the Chinese Doctor Fu Zhang who is a lisenced acupunturist and a purveyor of chinese herbs which have been used safely for thousands of years.Both pressman and Fu Zhang have a proven track record with lowering high blood pressure using chinese herbs.I have been able to maintain my Glaucoma with herbs and vitamins prescribed by these complimentary practioners.Pressman reads my eye tests and looks at my Films (xrays) that were done to check for sinus trouble. I will find out more about his testing and include it in an open mic which is the appropriate place for this dialogue.

Radio Talent To The Rescue!
Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 3:39pm.
Gulf war syndrome
Submitted by taozen on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 12:29pm.
As I was told By Gary Null and Dr Alan pressman alot of trouble that the Gulf War soldiers had was caused by the adjuvant which was put in the shots they were given. If It was not for active protesting from People like Nora and groups Like Healthfreedomusa.org and Natural News this same adjuvant was planned to be in this year's swine Flu Vaccine. Those brave souls who took the N1H1 vaccine this year in the states should realize That people like Nora and me made so much noise that this squalene was taken out of the formula...
----------
taozen,

Your tin-foil hat stays in the closet when it suits your anti-establishment ideology. Science is in the pocket of capitalism except when you like the "science." Pharmacological evidence is tainted by the evils of capitalism unless it comes from a self-appointed expert who has a radio show and hawks his own line of retail health products.

Gary Null has a mail-order PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies. Gary Null retails his own line of health products. Gary Null has a radio show. It should surprise no one that quackery is among the charges by his critics. (Null promotes AIDS denialism which should attract the critical attention of anyone who passed high school biology.)

Dr. Alan Pressman (a chiropractor) also retails his own line of health products. He is (or was?) a "medical advisor" to NuGenix, which sells health products using the multi-level-marketing business model. Alan Pressman has a radio show. He's "The Doctor to the stars." What more do you need to know? Oh, he is the Director of the Gramercy Health Association in New York...which is another way of saying that he is the director of his own chiropractic business.

I sincerely doubt that Gary Null or Alan Pressman or taozen or nora submitted peer-reviewed testing to support an examination or reexamination of any symptom of Gulf War Syndrome whatsoever. A protest of faulty science won't get out of the starting blocks without science to support the protest.

If you strongly believe in Big Pharma's ability or the Pentagon's ability to squash a heightened examination of the drugs administered to soldiers, you are not going to believe that a mail-order PhD on a radio show forced Big Pharma and the U.S. military to relent. The two ideas are in direct tin-foil contradiction with one another and cannot be held at the same time without bathing in cognitive dissonance.

Gulf War (1) Syndrome is a catch-all for dozens of symptoms. Some of the people who are included in the Gulf War Syndrome-suffering international group never received the U.S. vaccines/inoculations administered to U.S. soldiers prior to deployment. The individual substances administered are suspect as a cause of some symptoms. The large collection of substances administered are suspect as a cause, too. Exposure to battlefield toxins is yet another area of suspicion as a cause of some symptoms. In fact, many causes are suspect for many different symptoms, some of which overlap.

taozen---You will note that I have not disputed the possibilities of the causes of various Gulf War Syndrome symptoms. I have impugned your sources, which is as American as apple pie.

You impugn all of science as being tainted by capitalism (or corporatism or oligarchism or whateverism...take your pick). It's the beauty of the conspiratorial charge: Epistemology is defined by you alone. Everything I know is tainted while everything you know is pure.

Here's the deal. When you cite sources to support your argument, be prepared to have their weaknesses exposed. You can be certain that I won't rely on bumper-sticker sloganeering such as accusations of "corporatism." A vague accusation of corruption within the scientific community is not as powerful as a specific accusation that your information source does not believe in AIDS (and he'll sell you his film to prove it).

There are two kinds of suckers in this world:

The first kind believes stuff because everybody else believes it. The second kind believes stuff because only a few people believe it.

====================================

nora's comment on it

CrankLogic to the rescue? OR is it only his usual put-downs?
Submitted by nora on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 4:59pm.
Radio Talent To The Rescue!
Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 3:39pm.
==========================

Crank, why are you resistant to taking your arguments off thread in a sustained, graphicly contiguous debate/discussion?

Why don't you want to engage in a self-contained and long term contest off thread in an Open Mic?

Why don't you offer us your own Open Mic and clarify what you are getting at? I'm willing to do that. Taozen joined in an Open Mic and showed his willingness. Why not YOU?

Many here have stated they prefer these challenges on the main thread to end, and the sane suggestion that they be handled OFF the daily thread is sensible; and we are SO fortunate to have the wonderful Open Mic format with which to do this. What IS your position on this, O Great Crank Purveyor Of Crank Logic? Or are you locked in to just throwing word grenades and scurrying off? Do tell, please.
===================================

Additional nora comment

AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH "Radio Talent To The Rescue!", CRANKBAIT?

Crank, why do YOU feel you must DISDAIN "Radio Talent" when you blog at the site of one of the best talents in radio?

I'm not going further into your ugly swamp of an attitude on this, unless you continue to press this. But you really are an ungrateful sort of soul.

Merely Illuminating The Subject(s)
new
Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 9:01pm.
Submitted by taozen on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 5:56pm.
...I can see you already have dismissed Alan Pressman and Gary Null as unworthy of your respect...
---------
What I did was exemplify what you do: You discard science that you don't like because it is tainted by the corruption of capitalism.

On the top left of Null's home page, where it is the first thing you see, is a menu of Null's "Most popular products."

On the top right of Pressman's home page, where it is the second thing you see, is "Dr. Pressman's Marketplace."

Null and Pressman escape your accusation that science is corrupted by the bottom line. If someone had been sickened by one of their (unregulated) products, we would know, right? I mean, they would publish an apology and admit their wrongdoing, right? Neither of them would consider paying-off a sickened customer to keep them quiet. Hush money is what the mainstream medicine profit mongers pay, right?

If one of Null's or Pressman's products was statistically proved to be worthless, they'd let us know, wouldn't they? Of course they would. Unlike regular capitalists, they are good capitalists. They are good corporatists, too. The corporations they have created and are employed by are good corporations.

My goal is not to defend the status quo. My goal is to expose bogus arguments. You, taozen, are a thousand times more able than nora to recognize sweeping generalities and hollow statements. I have seen you retract and reword to clarify your argument. I have seen you reverse your position after further consideration.

You have decided to believe the scientific explanation for AIDS and to believe in Null's other claims at the same time. I have decided to believe in the science of thousands of vaccine studies and to believe in the corrupting influence of money at the same time.

It is possible to hold a belief without buying the whole kit and caboodle, although we both need a solid reason for believing one thing while not believing another thing. It cannot always be the same reason. If it is, it's zealotry.

Zealotry blinds people. The greater the zeal, the less willing and able to see. There is a language of repetition in zealotry that is easy to recognize. Zealspeak is filled with vaguely-defined nouns that are front-loaded with negative connotations; corporatist, infidel, fascist, pagan, oligarch, tree-hugger, redneck, atheist.

I hate zealotry. The worst that the world has to offer is wrapped in zeal.

======================================

nora's comment on above

zeal=enthusiasm
zealotry=undo or excessive zeal

Crank, I think you love to demonize normal enthusiasm and sharing to the point of zealotry.

To look at your two posts like this, I interpret them as just dripping the spittle of your zealotry, CRANK -- your CrankZealotry to Put Us In Our Place.

It looks to me that you, Crank, take examples of healthy, rosy-cheeked, normal enthusiasm for finding information and sharing information, and you try to portray them as something vile; you do it by painting them with the vile goo of demeaning words. (When Taozen posts, I see him sharing what he has learned and offering it for people to consider. That's what I understand from his posts. I also interpret that Taozen wants people to know there may be more options they can choose from than they know. I see nothing of zealotry there at all.)

It makes me wonder -- do YOU, Crank, ever feel healthy enthusiasm for anything? I mean, I've never seen anything you've posted here that sounds like you have had the FUN of discovering something or are having a personally meaningful/important insight. Of course, I admit I haven't the time or inclination to read all your posts. That's why I am ASKING you about your experience, rather than telling you WHAT your personal experience IS. (Telling people what their experiences are seems to be YOUR department.) So, can you answer?

Crank, you write: "...I have decided to believe in the science of thousands of vaccine studies and to believe in the corrupting influence of money at the same time."

It appears to me you may be trying to take a LOFTY position above us all with this statement. You are attempting to portray yourself as that RARE individual who can hold PARADOX and not lose equilibrium. But you give yourself away as not being the Man of Facts you make yourself out to be when you write that you "have decided to believe in the science..."! You choose the word "BELIEVE" like any fundmentalist would, as if your brand of 'Science' is your religion. Yikes!

Now I fall back on the believe word, also. A lazy trait. But when I argued you about conspiracy way back in blog history, I indicated that I choose to gather as many facts as I can so that I can CONSTANTLY be correcting my fact base and decide what it is I can get a-hold of that is closest to a Truth (an ideal) as I can get.

In contrast, in your sentence you are indicating you have decided what you "believe in". That is a might FINAL position, Crank. Rather immobilized really. Sort of frozen in time.

YOU, Crank, are the one to discard Science. Science is a PROCESS of Facts in Flux and discovery, it is NOT an immobile position.

Just my read.

Crank attempts to demean healthcare practitioners Null and Pressman because they have healthcare practices and conduct business. (More importantly, at the same time, he IGNORES the work of the scientists and physicians whose studies Null presents in his arguments for safer vaccines.) These practitioners also make an effort to inform the public of the REALITY that safety concerns exist about conventional practices, and that -- for the sake of public health and the FURTHERANCE of Science itself -- there should be improved testing/ClinicalTrials and an even playing field for the testing, consideration, and incorporation of non-conventional protocols (which would form a system leading to Americans being allowed access to protocols which in some cases are already in use in Europe.)

Crank himself presents (with a flourish of significance)
http://www.samsedershow.com/node/5669#comment-396746
his own 'experts' who not only practice healthcare delivery for a living but in addition spend time arguing from a pre-meditated entrenched position against protocols non-conventional, against approaches un-attached to the pharmceutical industry, and so on. Crank's experts promote their debunking program with books, newsletters, lectures and a website promoting their chosen work.

I ask: Crank, since when is having a healthcare practice a strike against a healthcare practitioner? Or when is a healthcare practitioner with an expertise not expected to publish or write books? Or when is an advocacy stance a strike against someone who holds a position?

Looks like a stalemate on the grounds of making a living, writing books, and having a product or position.

Crank, don't you have anything better to offer?

When was the last time you went to a healthcare practitioner who didn't charge a fee?

a dirty pic here

a dirty pic UP here . . . "

Dang! If you'd only added one more syllable (like that one) it'd scan like the first line of a limerick.
- Take it, Air!
Well now that thought will either speed or hinder my sleep in a few minutes

if you include the title
you wrote 5 lines...
and that's what a limerick is

: )

There once was a dirty pic here
That would make a simple man leer
But then our air-ono took it down
'Cause he knew it'd make nora frown
And currrrrrrrrl her lipz in a sneer

Now behave!

Or I'll start to drink beer
My car I won't be able to steer
and how will I get back to town
blah-blah

Submitted by taozen on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 10:29pm.
No unregulated products are sold by Dr pressman or by Gary Null.
------------------
http://www.fda.gov/Food/DietarySupplements/ConsumerInformation/ucm110567...

Who is responsible for ensuring the safety and efficacy of dietary supplements?

Under the law, manufacturers of dietary supplements are responsible for making sure their products are safe before they go to market. They are also responsible for determining that the claims on their labels are accurate and truthful. Dietary supplement products are not reviewed by the government before they are marketed, but FDA has the responsibility to take action against any unsafe dietary supplement product that reaches the market. If FDA can prove that claims on marketed dietary supplement products are false and misleading, the agency may take action also against products with such claims.

*

Come on, Crank, engage.

When YOU write you "believe in" your science, isn't that like believing in a DOGMA, as in religious DOGMA?

Come on, CRANK. Are you not up to the task of explaining your OWN position using your legendary superior intellect?

http://www.gnhealthyliving.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=207

The Heavenly Aloe Blend That Tastes Delicious! 33.8 Fl. Oz. (1 Qt 1.8 Fl. Oz.) 1 Litter

Whole Leaf Aloe Liquid Supplement with Delicious Very Cherry Berry Flavor.

A Dietary Supplement of: Concentrated Whole Leaf Aloe Vera and an Herbal Blend (Siberian Ginseng, Gotu Kola, Wild Yam, Ginger, and Peppermint Extracts) with Cherry and Black Cherry Natural Fruit Flavors. Tested for purity and potency by four independent labs and certified by the International Aloe Science Council.

Gary Null's Heavenly Aloe is the first aloe blend that actually tastes delicious! This special Concentrated Whole Leaf Aloe Vera is made using a patented technique of "Whole Leaf Processing" which removes the undesirable aloin and aloe emodin. The result is a blend that maximizes the incredible nutritional content of Whole Leaf Aloe Vera. And it tastes so good, you'll look forward to drinking without mixing.

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 2 Tbsp.
Servings per container: 33

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

Calories 15

Total Fat 0 g

Cholesterol 0 g

Sodium 15 mg <1%*

Total Carbohydrates 4 g 1%*

Dietary Fiber 0 g

Sugars 3 g

Protein 0 g

Proprietary blend 23,910 mg

Aloe Barbadensis Leaf *

Siberian Ginseng Root *

Gotu Kola Root *

Wild Yam Root *

Ginger root *

Peppermint Leaf *

*Daily value not established.

Other ingredients: Cherry and Black Cherry Natural Fruit Flavors, Crystalline Fructose, Citric Acid, Potassium Sorbate (Preservative), and Sodium Benzoate
-----------------------------------
"Cherry and Black Cherry Natural Fruit Flavors" are exactly the same flavoring designations used in Fruit Loops and chewing gums. They are fake flavors created in a lab and sold on the open market to the processed food industry.

The percentage of daily value (which I assume refers to the percentage of the Minimum Daily Requirement) supplied by the product is zero except for sodium and carbohydrate at one percent each.

Nearly all of the calories can be accounted for in the 3 grams of sugar (15 calories in two tablespoons). Three grams times 33 servings is 99 grams of sugar in the liter bottle.

The 23.91 grams of "Propietary blend" can be any combination of the listed ingredients and it can change from batch to batch. The FDA only requires that each ingredient is detectable and that they collectively total 23.91 grams. The label does not supply (nor guarantee) percentages of each ingredient in the "Propietary blend."

A liter (not litter) of water weighs one kilogram. The "Propietary blend" weighs 23.91 grams. The sugar weighs 99 grams. Approximately 875 grams are something other than the "Propietary blend" and sugar.

Some of the other grams are tied up in the citric acid (it improves shelf life and is sold in drums and tanker cars to the food processing industry), potassium sorbate (a preservative sold to the processed foods industry that inhibits mold and yeast growth) and sodium benzoate (a preservative and dye, formerly used as an antiseptic).

I guess the remaining 850-and-some-odd grams are water? Who knows? Certainly taozen does not know, nor would he ever know unless he had the liter analyzed at his own expense.

It's marked down from $36.95 to $29.56 (plus shipping, I assume?).

Avandia might kill you but you can be assured that a government agency demands that a bottle of Avandia actually contains bona fide Avandia in the amount listed on the label.

Gary Null's Heavenly Aloe Blend? Not so much. It could contain .02 grams of aloe. You would never know and you would have no recourse even if you did know.

According to the International Aloe Science Council, you can rest assured that its members put some aloe in their products. Or something. The International Aloe Science Council is pretty vague about it. Their web site assures us that their members state the quantity of aloe on the label, which is clearly not true in this case. You'd think that one of the four independent labs would have noticed the oversight.

Enjoy those Fruit Loop flavors, though. Purple was my favorite.

Not Reviewed By The Government Before Marketed
Submitted by Crank Bait on Sat, 02/27/2010 - 6:19pm.

=============================

You are digging up the same old tired arguments used in an old debate, rehashing the same old arguments that were defeated with the last battle during the passage of DSHEA in around 1994, 1995.

At that time the powers that be created a bizarre, ne CRAZY, redefinition of the words 'food' and 'drug' in an attempt to classify foodstuffs and extracts from food as "drugs".

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a904787586&db=all

They attempted a Public Relations campaign to make consumers fear and distrust supplements derived from food-based materials -- and they almost got away with it, but only because they had it on a FAST-TRACK, not because they had superior data. Luckily people realized that the real cause of death in this country is from actual drugs/PHARMACEUTICALS, not food and food extracts. Normal dosage of aspirin alone kills about 12,000 people a year from gastro-intestinal bleeding. When has anyone died from normal ingestion of a One-A-Day vitamin? Estimates --conservative estimates, mind you -- indicate that the conventional medical paradigm does not work:

Iatrogenic (medical-caused) disease is RAMPANT in your paradigm of ConventionalMedicine/ScientificReligiousDogma:

http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm
http://www.alternative-doctor.com/specials/Dr_%20Barbara_Starfield.htm

And what about the fear-mongering about supplements? All a witch-hunt, now conducted by our government (with the aid of the current legislation by McCain Senate Bill 3002 http://www.anh-usa.org/new_site/?p=2438 and that other Senate Bill (The Food Safety Modernization Act) http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_20124.cfm at the behest of the RICHEST transnationals of the Planet--the Pharmaceutical Industry and its pal Corporate Agribusiness.

http://www.avianweb.com/howdangerousaresupplements.html
http://www.laleva.cc/supplements/medical_injury_law.pdf [an Australian study, very clear chart]

And 'drug' testing? If the authorities wanted to clean up their system, why aren't they? Why do we have all these problems with pharmaceutical/synthetic/synthesized substances like Vioxx and Avandia, etc.? The drug companies apparently use a rigged testing protocol; they seem to feel free to lie on their research results documentation; they conduct inadequate tests; they avoid clinical trials (human research); they rely on lab animal experimentation drug testing -- and lab animal testing has proved itself unreliable and does not extrapolate to humans. Classifying food-based supplements as 'drugs' sends natural substances into this hell-hole of a rigged system. Some innovation. Logic would demand that this broken system be REPAIRED before expanding its reach. AND THEY HAVE HAD OVER FIFTEEN YEARS TO DO THAT since the passing of DSHEA. What is the problem with the FDA and those who use it as their puppet? Could it be they don't want it fixed because a properly-run FDA would mess up their GET RICH QUICK rigged game and duping of the American consumer of pharmaceutical drugs?

Zeroing in on food-based supplements is clearly an Edward BERNAYS-style Public Relations diversionary tactic to take attention off the dominant industries that put profits before consumer health and safety. (The effort to make supplements look dangerous when they are NOT dangerous is similar to Bernays' United Fruit Company scam in Guatemala where Bernays succeeded in making a democracy appear to be a hotbed of communists when it was NOT a hotbed of communists!)

Both Big Pharma and Corporate Agribusiness are AFRAID of losing market share to the natural remedies and CLEAN FOOD purveyors.

And yet the FDA and USDA don't care if you eat tainted food, or else maybe they would institute adequate inspections on this industry, huh?:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/02/18/appalling-...

Or maybe just step in about the drug Avandia right away, rather than letting consumer civil suits struggle with it.

Wake up and smell the stench of the the tainted manure and the iatrogenic disease, Crank. Or the coffee. Just wake up.

Crank's post "Radio Talent To The Rescue!" on main thread
Submitted by nora on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 10:48pm.
Radio Talent To The Rescue!
Submitted by Crank Bait on Fri, 02/26/2010 - 3:39pm.
...

I sincerely doubt that Gary Null or Alan Pressman or taozen or nora submitted peer-reviewed testing to support an examination or reexamination of any symptom of Gulf War Syndrome whatsoever. A protest of faulty science won't get out of the starting blocks without science to support the protest....[paragraph]If you strongly believe in Big Pharma's ability or the Pentagon's ability to squash a heightened examination of the drugs administered to soldiers, you are not going to believe that a mail-order PhD on a radio show forced Big Pharma and the U.S. military to relent. The two ideas are in direct tin-foil contradiction with one another and cannot be held at the same time without bathing in cognitive dissonance.

Gulf War (1) Syndrome is a catch-all for dozens of symptoms. Some of the people who are included in the Gulf War Syndrome-suffering international group never received the U.S. vaccines/inoculations administered to U.S. soldiers prior to deployment. The individual substances administered are suspect as a cause of some symptoms. The large collection of substances administered are suspect as a cause, too. Exposure to battlefield toxins is yet another area of suspicion as a cause of some symptoms. In fact, many causes are suspect for many different symptoms, some of which overlap. [paragraph]taozen---You will note that I have not disputed the possibilities of the causes of various Gulf War Syndrome symptoms. I have impugned your sources, which is as American as apple pie....[end Crank's comments]

---------

Crank, when the sick and dying and the corpses pile up, usually eventually some patients/victims and family members start to look around for some information and ways to help their loved ones or exzplain the loss. I think it is at that point that information sources are sought to figure out what is happening. Do you expect these people to scan medical abstracts? Maybe some might. But information clearinghouse services seem a logical way to assist. Null and Pressman look to me to be such providers of information.

Now you look like you're having a great deal of fun attempting to impugn them -- BUT I see that you have not even approached the SOURCES of their information. IS IT YOUR INTENT TO INDICATE THE INVALIDITY OF THE SOURCES OF DATA RELATED BY NULL AND PRESSMAN SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS RELATED BY NULL AND PRESSMAN? If so, you are doing a disservice to all concerned.

Because this is the data the families need to figure out what is happening to them and their loved ones, to build cases for claims and suits.

So you indicate you don't dispute the possibility that symptoms now labelled Gulf War Syndrome might exist. Well, just how much suffering and death have to occur before you think some effort should be made to understand the problem -- especially when you maintain that those spotlighting the problem are not worthy to do so?

Should all those suffering just keep waiting?

Should they wait like those exposed to AGENT ORANGE waited and may still be waiting?--

Agent Orange--VA adds three illnesses to its list
Submitted by nora on Sat, 02/20/2010 - 6:12pm.
After over 30 years of denial and resistence, government still needs to complete the list of diseases that Agent Orange causes/d. Maybe it gets easier on the Masters of War after the ever-rising number of victims are DEAD and GONE.

[excerpt]

VA Plans Additions to Agent
Orange Illness Presumptions List

The VA has announced that three
new illnesses are now linked by
medical evidence to the herbicide
defoliant Agent Orange, which was
used extensively during the Vietnam
War.
In October 2009, the VA announced
its intent to add hairy cell leukemia,
Parkinson’s disease and ischemic
heart disease, which raises to 15 the
total number of “presumed” serviceconnected
illnesses the VA considers
linked to Agent Orange.
“This is very significant,” said
VFW National Commander Thomas J.
Tradewell, Sr. “The VA is saying ‘We
believe you,’ which will enable more
veterans to receive the health care and
benefits they earned and deserve.”
Regulations must be written,
published for public comment and
republished before this change will be
effective. However, veterans can file
claims now for these disabilities.
...[end]

Interesting, nora.

Funny my across the street neighbor unloaded their ships for decades. HE did great. Good union.

He's been retired at least since I've been ten years old.

(I'm 42 now.)

But...OT.

Submitted by Crank Bait on Sat, 02/27/2010 - 8:02pm.

"Avandia might kill you but you can be assured that a government agency demands that a bottle of Avandia actually contains bona fide Avandia in the amount listed on the label."

Crank I think you are on to something . it is a lot of work for you to do,but I would feel better if you get the government agencies that protect us from fraud to look into Gary Null's products.

Please examine Pressman's Glutaplex he makes outrageous claims about it's effectiveness and I think you could help protect us from his greedy marketing stategies.

I also am concerned that Bill Moyers has been bought off and is unwittingly
being used to promote Fake science by the likes of A Gary Null.

I don't think any product Dr. Alan pressman has sold has been attributed to be the cause of death of anyone who has taken them. I have heard of a few cases when major pharmaceutical companies have misled the public as to their products safety and they have removed these perscription medicines from the market place after the funerals were over and the families of the victims had fogotten their loved ones.. I do know that there are a couple of forms of citric acid and also a few different forms of Natural flavorings .
But I thought the main topic of this open mic was to gather up information on the vaccine industry so that people could make an educated GUESS as to the effectiveness and safety of the ingredients in these medicines.
In the mean time please refrain from taking any products from these unreliable people like Pressman or Null. I have trust in Pressman's products
and in his science. I will advocate for him and his products just as you advocate for The vaccines that you personally didn't take. In my case I am taking Pressman's products and I continue to give them to my family.

My father the Doctor never warned me about Pressman's products but he did warn me not to take recently released vaccines and to wait for a few years before assuming that they are safe and effective. I am glad he did that in the 50's when polio vaccine first came out. My father the Dr. made it very clear
that my mother should not take Flu shots. . I wish you had met my Dad he would have enjoyed your energy and might have offered to hook you up with a job at the CIA. he still kept his contacts after he left the OSS and he was good at manipulating others who were blindly loyal to a system of government. When I refused his offers to Join up he seemed very glad that I would not be used to promote the Medical or military industrial complex. he said that I was a good example of the natural evolution of human thought.
My dad said the one thing you could be sure of was the profits that could be made from the pharmaceutical industry and he thought from a money point of view that the organic industry was not an easy way to make big money.
.Three months before he died he said that big money had gotten in the way of compassionate medicine. He had lost trust in our governments ability to tell the truth when so much money was involved.. My father loved to play with people and challenge them even when he knew they were right. I think it was a teaching tool that his professors had used on him back at Cornell and Williams. he did laugh a lot at people who were not open to all possibilities.
. . He was pretty tough on people who didn't wash up thoroughly. He was upset at people who did not exercise and was very in favor of home organic gardens. He also admitted that the food supply was not as safe as it had been in his younger days.. He stood up for me when I was laughed at by the Cold Spring harbor lab and Dr Watson(Linus Paulings nemesis) when they belittled algae as a potential energy and nutritonal source. MY father reminded them that the Harvard studies on beta carotene were originaly based on algal sources. he was involed in those studies . Later Dr watson from the Cold Spring harbor lab was doing work on genetics, and He worked for the Pentagon for a year before he stopped saying that the Pentagon's motives were not trustworthy and he thought his work would be used to harm rather than help society,. Watson was given the biggest governmental grant for research and then he walked away when he saw what was their probable motive for gathering up this new science. I hope to keep an open mind as science evolves and I would never want to hurt anyone for monetary gains. I dont think that the big pharmaceutical companies would be as considerate.

Please stay away from Pressman and Null and all that they say because I wouldn't want the Karma of offering options that are possibly dangerous.

I love nora and taozen.

Sometime I should write more about how much you have positively affected my life. You have, seriously.

CRANKBAIT, your first salvo takes the form of dismissing health practitioners Null and Pressman (they are lowly peddlers of nutritional products, chiropractic, and they are merely blathering "radio talent", you say).

But what of other sources?

Here's one of the sources:

Institute of Medicine (IMO)--

http://www.iom.edu/About-IOM.aspx

[excerpt]
About the IOM
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) is an independent, nonprofit organization that works outside of government to provide unbiased and authoritative advice to decision makers and the public.

Established in 1970, the IOM is the health arm of the National Academy of Sciences, which was chartered under President Abraham Lincoln in 1863. Nearly 150 years later, the National Academy of Sciences has expanded into what is collectively known as the National Academies, which comprises the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, the National Research Council, and the IOM.

Our Mission
The Institute of Medicine serves as adviser to the nation to improve health.
[end excerpt]

Here is the IMO's report on IATROGENIC DISEASE of July 20, 2006:

http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2006/Preventing-Medication-Errors-Quality-Cha...

This is the brief that gives tips about avoiding ADE's (adverse drug effects). Note the end of the document -- the source of the information and review of the information). Is EVERY ONE OF these professionals also incapable of passing the CRANKBAIT test of legitimacy?--

http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2006/Preventing-Medicati...

And also, these professionals: Are they capable of passing your CRANKBAIT snifftest?--

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11623&page=R5

AND these professionals, too?--

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11623&page=R7

The contents page of this particular report indicates the problem it recognizes and the scope of its professional recommendations for dealing with the problem:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11623&page=R15

Here's a disturbing paragraph from this report:

[excerpt]
These data, taken together with the results of the above studies, which identified 0.1 prescribing error per patient per day (Kaushal et al., 2001) and 0.3 prescribing error per patient per day (Bates et al., 1995a), as well as plus the fact that medication errors occur in other stages of the medication-use process (e.g., errors in the prescribing and administration stages accounted for 77 percent of medication errors [Leape et al., 1995]), suggest to the committee that about one medication error occurs per patient per day in hospital care.
[end excerpt]
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11623&page=111

The study looked at drug use by hospitals, nursing homes, in ambulatory care, psychiatric care, pediatrics, and pharmacy errors, administration errors, over-the-counter (OTC) use, and alternatives. (Note the alternative data is low because of the Establishment's resistance to studying them.)

Their conclusions about the number of deaths from "death-by medicine" and pharmaceuticals are even more alarming than the figures I quoted from another source in a previous post:

[excerpt]
Summary
In total, the committee estimates that at least 1.5 million preventable ADEs occur each year in the United States:

Underutilization and Overutilization of Medications
Both underutilization of medications (the failure to prescribe medications for which there is an evidence base for reduction in morbidity and mortality) and overutilization of medications (prescribing of medications for which there is no evidence base for reduction in morbidity and mortality) are common in hospitals, nursing homes, and the ambulatory setting. The committee found well-documented evidence of inadequate treatment for acute coronary syndromes, heart failure, chronic coronary disease, atrial fibrillation, bacterial infection prophylaxis, and thrombosis prophylaxis in hospitals. Underutilization of medications in nursing homes and assisted-living facilities relative to national standards is best documented for pain management, congestive heart failure, and use of anticoagulants in stroke prevention and atrial fibrillation, but there is also limited evidence for deficits in use of medications for depression, myocardial infarction prophylaxis, and treatment of osteoporosis. Overutilization of medication is best documented in the treatment of colds, upper respiratory infections, and bronchitis by antibiotics.
[end excerpt]
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11623&page=124

------------------------------------

And here is discussion of another study, "Death By Medicine", which quotes an even higher estimated death rate from iatrogenic disease ("death-by-medicine"):

http://www.encognitive.com/files/Part%20I--Death%20by%20Medicine.pdf
[excerpt]

This fully referenced report shows the number of people having in-hospital, adverse reactions to prescribed drugs to be 2.2 million per year. The number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections is 20 million per year. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million per year. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million per year.

The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US. (By contrast, the number of deaths attributable to heart disease in 2001 was 699,697, while the number of deaths attributable to cancer was 553,251.5)
[end excerpt]

Crank, I guess you might dismiss it though, since Null was a co-author, and even though he did not write this study alone, but with three M.D.s and another Ph.D. It was published in 2003. The IOM study above was done in 2006. I do not know if the Null et al book sparked the interest in pursuing the 2006 study by IOM, but I would be surprised if it did not encourage it.

I do not claim to know how to interpret these studies. But it sure looks like a lot of professionals are concerned enough to make a stink about an apparent failure in our Pharmaceutical-based medical system.

----------------------------------------

REGARDING VACCINES.

Vaccines were within the scope of the IOM study above, as this search indicates, quoting pages 35, 93, 94 where the study mentioned vaccines:
http://books.nap.edu/booksearch.php?record_id=11623&term=vaccines&chapte...
http://books.nap.edu/booksearch.php?record_id=11623&term=vaccines&chapte...

Perhaps your reading of this would come to another conclusion, CRANK, but from my quick reading, it appears truly adequate data on vaccines is lacking because the CDC drags its heels on the collection of vaccine data (which would make the CDC's negligence in H1N1 vaccine data collection an action totally in character with past CDC behavior).

(Oops. I'm back to that question of WHY? As in: Why doesn't the CDC institute a thorough records program on the effects of vaccines on the population? A question which you, CRANKBAIT, interpret as the rampant crazy slobbering questioning only a CONSPIRACY THEORIST would ask!)

Why doesn't the CDC institute a thorough records program on the effects of vaccines on the population?

http://www.encognitive.com/files/Part%20I--Death%20by%20Medicine.pdf

I will take a guess and say that science gets in the way of profits and sheeple must denegrate the messengers because the message contradicts the superiority of the present state of for profit pharmaceutical controlled medicine.

I am tired of being lied to by out of control Businessmen who bribe Doctors with junkets to shitty broadway shows and diners at Ben benson's steakhouse home of the 72 ounce hormone laden dyed meats.

Not to many years ago a Limo company hired me to take the Biggest distrbutors of Lipitor around the City to reward them for pushing Lipitor to as many patients as they could justify.
I engaged these Doctors with information that Dr. Atkins,Dr Pressman and gary Null had discussed on their radio shows.
I look young for my age and these same Doctor's asked me where I was going to medical school. I laughed and I told these Doctors from Texas that the information I was quoting came from the Three Men I just mentioned.
The oldest Doctors got mad and left the van with their feathers in a ruffle.

The last Doctor in the van who was the youngest and most open minded
said to me that the information I was quoting was very current and cost effective and safer than jumping to Lipitor and similar medicines.. He was afraid to admit it in front of his peers but he admitted to me that So much money was floating around from the Big Pharma and these men I learned
from would be attacked and belittled by the M$M and the bought out Medical Journals
. This Newbie Doctor admitted to using the same nutrients and herbs in his practice that Pressman and Atkins and Null had brought to the general public. This same Doctor said that most people are sheeple and are lazy and wont do much research or lifestyle changes. This progressive Doctor said he would have to infiltrate the Medical hierarchy by playing the social game to be a positive force in modern medicine.
This same situation of bribery exists in the world of politics. The Blue dog Demon crats are holding up healthcare reform because they are bought out by Big Pharma..

Something toniD posted that I want to keep track of so I'm parking it here:

http://www.alternet.org/world/145892/are_veterans_being_given_deadly_coc...

http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-edge-newspaper-2006/july-9.html
http://biopsychiatry.com/side-effects.htm

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/LongTermSSRI.htm

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Treating_Depression/controlling.htm

____________
Opinions differ,but I think a more gentle approach from basic amino acids .Called targeted Amino Acid Therapy,and green tea/theonine, and traditional B vitamins and minerals like zinc and selenium have been use by Dr. Gottfried Kellerman
www.Neurorelief.com
It is a progressive and less dangerous place to fix neurotransmitter related issues
----------
https://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id...

A product called Travacore has worked for me.

it is "bone-snap" cold withseveral days & eves of rains - yet NO SNOW, as back East...

Somebody tell Sally Fields about BONIVA:

http://www.usnews.com/health/family-health/bones-joints-and-muscles/arti...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/03/20/david-ayou...

[excerpt]

Dr. Ayoub was, as many of you are, very concerned about mercury (thimerosal) in vaccines for a number of years, and attended a number of autism conferences that featured physicians who were highlighting the dangers of mercury.

However, a few personal encounters heightened his interest in another toxic metal frequently used in vaccines, namely aluminum.

Parents of autistic children kept pointing out the fact that their children’s heavy metal toxicity profiles showed high amounts of aluminum, and they wanted to know what that meant.

Secondly, a well respected nutritionist who deals with industrial aluminum toxicity showed him toxicity profiles of middle school children who had ADHD. In his estimate, 90 percent of the children in one particular school had developed ADHD during the course of a single year, and their toxicity profiles showed massive amounts of aluminum.

In addition, he did a pilot study with Dr. Usman, who treats autism with biomedicine, and when he evaluated the aluminum burden of these autistic children, he found that high percentage of them also had very high aluminum burdens.

All of these events led him to look deeper into the aluminum issue, which we discuss at length in this interview.

Why is Aluminum Used in Vaccines?
Mercury (thimerosal) exposure has declined significantly since it was eliminated from the single-dose vials of most childhood vaccines, yet autism rates have continued to skyrocket. This has led many to assume that mercury isn’t a problem, and anyone questioning the safety of vaccines is considered to be a hysterical wingnut.

However, while mercury use has decreased, the use of aluminum additives has increased!

Aluminum, like any other adjuvant, is added to the vaccine in order to boost the host’s immune response to the antigen. The antigen is what your body responds to and makes antibodies against (the virus being injected). By boosting your body’s immune response, the vaccine manufacturer can use a smaller amount of antigen, which makes production less expensive.

Interestingly enough, according to Dr. Ayoub, even our modern medical literature admits that how this happens exactly is still a mystery. And it’s not a consistent finding. He mentions a couple of studies on the more recent HPV vaccine, which found that the aluminum adjuvant had no effect at all on the immune response…

So, although aluminum is frequently added to vaccines for this particular purpose, no one knows with any degree of confidence that it actually makes a more effective vaccine.

Is Aluminum a Heavy Metal?
Aluminum is by many considered to be a heavy metal. However, based on the Periodic Table, it’s just shy of a heavy metal. So it’s called a “light metal.”

But regardless of its precise classification, aluminum is in the metal grouping, and it’s a common compound.

You will find aluminum in the earth’s crust, and in air, soil and water. However, although aluminum is a common, “natural” substance, it’s important to realize that it has absolutely no biological role inside your body.

In fact, we already know that aluminum is a poison.

Which Vaccines Contain Aluminum?
Many vaccines contain aluminum, including:

•Hepatitis A
•Hepatitis B
•DTaP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis)
•Hib vaccine
•Pneumococcal vaccine
•Gardasil (HPV vaccine)
This is NOT an all-inclusive list, however. Your best bet is to read through the package insert of each vaccine in question.

You can find a comprehensive list of approved vaccines on the FDA’s website, with links to each package insert.

The amount of aluminum in each vaccine will vary. However, according to Dr. Ayoub, it’s important to realize that the toxicity is not entirely dependent on dose, but also on how it’s distributed in your body.

For example, a small dose released rapidly from the injection site into your body can cause a rapid rise in blood aluminum levels. So a small dose released quickly may be much more toxic than a large dose that ends up staying longer in the tissue at the injection site.

The variables of personal differences and differences in how the injection is given are too numerous to count, and they may play a role in how toxic a shot ends up being once injected into your body.

How Much Aluminum is Your Child Getting Through Vaccines?
Dr. Ayoub has identified one vaccine in particular as being one of the absolute worst in terms of aluminum content – Pediatrix. It’s a combination vaccine, which contains 850 mcg of elemental aluminum.

The average aluminum content per vaccine ranges between 200 to 400 mcg. Others contain less, such as Prevnar, which has 125 mcg of aluminum.

Adding to the problem, however, is the fact that many children end up receiving multiple vaccines at a time. In effect, children are getting concentrations of aluminum that are 10 to 20 times higher than mercury.

Based on the number of vaccines given, children today are receiving 17 shots that contain aluminum, compared to four vaccines in the 1970s into the mid-80s. According to Dr. Ayoub’s calculations, the milligram dose of aluminum received has more than doubled in that time.

This can have significant implications, as aluminum is not only toxic in and of itself, but it also impairs your body’s ability to excrete mercury, and it impairs glutathione synthesis. As a consequence, aluminum will make whatever amount of mercury you have in your system even more toxic.

Remember, you and your children are exposed to mercury from other sources as well, not just vaccines. Fish and amalgam dental fillings are two major sources of mercury exposure as well.

Problems with the Legal Limits on Aluminum
In the U.S., the FDA sets the guidelines for what and how much aluminum is allowed in vaccines. According to the FDA, the maximum amount of allowable elemental aluminum is 850 mcg per vaccine.

Clearly, it makes a major difference if this amount is injected into a small infant or an adult, but the FDA makes no distinction to that effect.

In fact, when Dr. Ayoub dug deeper into the FDA regulations on aluminum, he discovered that the limitation of 850 mcg per vaccine is based on the effectiveness of the adjuvant role of aluminum and has nothing to do with limitations based on safety whatsoever!